A left handed person, we will call them B, had joined the group and in response to a thread that dealt with a new knitter learning Sinister knitting, piped up to say that she should be given an option of right handed knitting so that she doesn't have to deal with issues reversing patterns.
In a way, it almost seemed like flaming and a few people did react. After a few posts where B said they were being attacked, I put in my two cents as follows:
I think part of the issue here (and this is my view), is that some of the things you are saying is the same things many of us have heard in our lives which threatens to drive us away from other people and bonds us as a group here in OTOH.
Thus, some of your statements push buttons.
For example:
“Knitting is a two-handed activity”
Sure, and so is playing guitar, but that does not change the fact that some people are more comfortable doing where the left hand will be doing the more intense or precision or the larger amount of work. Putting a stick in a small hole of yarn does require a bit of eye-hand coordination, thus while both hands can be used (some knitting styles don’t use both hands) one hand needs to be more involved and therefore the knitter needs to use the hand that they are comfortable with.
While people can overcome discomfort through practice and repetition, many of us believe that overcoming left handed leanings (even as a simple suggestion) is offensive.
“you can only ask online and hope people give you good advice”
That I can simply disagree with. A person can learn by trying and swatching and practicing. This will allow them to not only figure out the question, but also to learn something knew which can apply to future projects or designing patterns. There may be some people who would rather have all the answers handed to them than to risk trying on their own, but there are many who will bravely move forward even if we can’t find a helping hand. I learned to knit all by my self with no one to ask what the small pictures meant. I don’t know if knitting help was available back then, but it sure didn’t cross my mind to check. Instead I just tried and tried until I thought I had it right. I made scarves that got better each time. Now I can teach right handed people to knit, and not just the basics. A person is limited to the basics if they are not willing to experiment. Before I ever got a pattern book, I was fiddling with yarn and figuring out many different ways to increase and decrease, wondering if what I was doing had a name or if I had discovered a new technique.
“having to translate all the patterns and most of the instruction books”
This is just untrue and has been mentioned already. MOST patterns do NOT need to be translated. (Caps used for stressing the word, not yelling). Most patterns can be knit up just as is with no changes needed. None. At worse, the ws/rs is flipped, but since MOST patterns don’t even mention ws/rs again it does not matter and no changes are needed. Any person with enough braincells to rub together will learn while knitting, in whatever direction, and end up being able to figure things out, or have friends to ask, when they do get to the more challenging things like lace.
For the record, lace is challenging no matter which way you knit. Left handed knitters don’t seem to be asking unique questions on knitting technique, but rather benefit from getting answers that do not include “You’re doing it wrong” “you need to learn to knit right handed” and so forth. OTOH provides an arena where we can ask questions and not get our knitting style attacked.
Also, many patterns have errors. So even right handed people with only a grasp of the basics are going to have to ask for help or try to ‘fix’ the pattern in order to make the project work.
I hope this helps.
The response I got involved B saying that I take disagreement as an attack, claiming that I was easily offended because right handed people are the majority, that someone who chooses to knit left handed will ALWAYS have to translate patterns and that is a BIG DEAL and finishing with more statements about me being easily offended.
So I gave this response:
I do not interpret your disagreement as an attack, I’m sorry if you got that impression some how. I was trying to point out how some things you have said would bother some people. I am not trying to change your views, only trying to provide some perspective.
I am not offended that the majority of many countries is right handed. I am not offended by people being right handed or any such thing. I said it can be offensive to be told to do something that is uncomfortable just to make life a wee bit easier. Life doesn’t get easier just because you conform and doing things in a different way that is comfortable means carving your own path. I have no problem spending a little bit of energy to follow my natural inclinations and I still have energy left over to knit and do other things.
You are welcome to make your own choices. Freedom of speech means you can voice the advice that you thing is good, but it also means other people can disagree with you. Funny you say that it is a big thing for you, yet you wonder what a person is doing wrong if they turn being left handed into a big deal.
I think it is amusing how many people make a big deal out of knitting right handed and make it sound like it is such a better way to do things. If it is better for you, that’s great, but it is not better for everyone. The big deal about doing something left handed is dealing with right handed people constantly shoving out the same advice as if it was something new. It really does get tiring to be told about pattern difficulties, especially when so many left handed people have not had such a difficulty.
“You seem to be so invested in your left-handedness that you want to deny that this choice exists.”
First, you are not me and you do not know me or how I think. I do not go around telling people to knit left handed. In fact, handedness only seems to come up when someone else points out which hand I use. I am not invested in left-handedness, I am supportive of people who do things the way that is most comfortable for them. If the ratio was reverse and I heard someone telling a right-handed person to do it left-handed I would defend that person’s right to be comfortable. I do not deny the existence of choices and how you got that is a mystery to me. Considering your previous statement about the majority of the “world” being right-handed coupled with being left-handed runs counter to the idea of denying a choice. Rather, my statements have been the opposite. People should have a choice and those options should be provided without scare tactics attached. Telling someone to do something one way because the other way will make their life harder is not a balance explanation of the option.
I have never said I was offended that people need to choose nor that they may choose something different than me. I’m sorry, but I’m not that ego-centric. If someone makes a decision to do something how they want to, I’m OK with that. It is their choice. I think it would be even better if they tried out both options first. It’s not like a person will be limited to knitting only one way for the rest of their lives.
Frankly, I don’t care how you chose to knit. If someone asks because they are trying to decide, then great and whatever decision they make is wonderful. Unfortunately I have met many people who are very insistent that left handed people have to learn right hand knitting and if they learned left handed they have to relearn everything JUST so they can avoid the cliched line of problems with patterns. People who act that way bug me, because frequently it is those same people who want left handed people to eat right handed and write right handed and everything else.
A lot of people in this group have run across the same issues.
The purpose of my post was simply to try and shed a little light as to how some things you said can lead to the reactions you have gotten. If it is accidental flaming, then now you know that maybe you could consider what you are saying and to whom. That doesn’t mean you can’t say what you want, but don’t be surprised or get your hackles up if someone disagrees with you. Advocating right-handedness in a left-handed forum (especially since there are so many people on the main forums who do it all the time) is going to get people going.
Hopefully you understand that there is no personal points being made here. I’m not attacking you and I don’t think you are attacking me. If you read this and still don’t understand, fine. We can agree to disagree, and may again in the future.
B came back saying that the standard way of knitting was not necessarily right handed (a confusing statement, really). B then said their point was that the new knitter had to choose how to knit and our group was obviously on a crusade to make the world easier for left handed people and that not telling a new knitter that they would have to translate patterns and reference books is dishonest.
B went on to say we were "downplaying" the issue of patterns and that it was equally as wrong as not telling a left handed person that standard knitting would be awkward. B stated that they had given their advice and opinion and had gotten attacked for it, sited posts that were considered attacking and said they were done with the conversation.
I got the impression that B was claiming to wash their hands of the issue as an emotional response and probably wasn't done stating their side. Thus, the next response:
I understand you are willing to drop this, as am I.
Yet I think in our discussion we have one basic disagreement that we are dancing around but not directly addressing with each other. If you don’t respond I’ll understand and I won't push.
You seem to believe that all or most of the patterns will need to be changed or adjustments made.
Based on my experience and taking other people’s statements into account, this not true.
Patterns that need adjustment are actually not something a beginning knitter is likely to run across. By the time they pick up a pattern that really needs an adjustment, they will already have been knitting left-handed.
Often, there are decreases that do not make a difference in direction, so it no adjustments needed.
I understand you are left handed and, if I recall correctly, you knit your stitches from the left needle to the right needle. If this is correct then you knit right-handed and that is great, but that means you follow patterns as written. So your statement that most patterns would have to be adjusted is based on a belief and not experience. I’m not saying that as an attack, rather just to clear things up a bit, but if it is an accurate statement then perhaps you might take in to account the views of people who have been knitting sinister (aka, from right needle to left) for years when we say that the pattern issue really is not a big deal.
Most patterns work just fine. Left-handed knitters ask for help on the same techniques that right handed knitters ask and have equal amount (if occasionally different reasons) of problems with patterns. Frequently, the way you knit, does not make a difference with the pattern.
If there was no support for someone to get pattern help then the occasional issue would be more of a big deal, but that is not the case. Just as a beginning knitter often needs help, if they can get the help then any difficulty is reduced. If someone in Florida wanted to learn downhill snow skiing and they have people to answer questions and give support then it is not as hard as someone in Colorado trying to learn it all by themselves.
The existence of our group helps reduce any difficulty for other people who knit sinister. It’s part of why we are here. It is not about changing the world, but rather supporting each other in a world that often seeks to change us.
B then quit the group then made a final post on the subject claiming that our group was holding a belief that knitting stitches from left needle to right was right handed and knitting from right needle to left was left handed and B just could not accept those terms as B did not believe the direction of stitches to be related to right or left hand knitting.
That blew my mind and I made a final reply stating that we did not make the rules, or in this case the definitions, but that we live with those terms.
After all was said and done, I felt there was some good points worth posting here. The claim that all patterns have to be adjusted if you knit sinister is WRONG, just plainly and simply WRONG. I would be nice if we could lay that excuse to rest and move on.
Coming up:
The really delayed post about the Yarn For Breakfast X-Mas Party.
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